Hidden text under images

[Hester]

oops... wrong section. sorry.

http://www.vodahost.com/vodatalk/adding-elements-your-website/52842-hidden-text-under-images.html#post322668

[Hester]

Hidden text under images

Hey Friends! :)

I don't get much time to come around here during the summers, but now that I've begun and new redesign to my site (not published yet), I'm curious about a couple things and wanted to see what kind of info I can get.

I know that many people here know the real "tricks" behind web design better than I do, so I think I'm in the right section of the forum.

After doing a bit of searching and not finding the answer I was looking for, I'm posting this question: Can the text on a page of a website still be detected if it is hidden or beneath images?

A while back I created a version of my website that had literally NO text for any of the labels, links or descriptions. All were images that had the text imprinted on it. My reason for doing that was because I wanted to use a non-websafe font and because it was also difficult to get it to line up with everything the way I wanted to. (I'm just a bit OCD like that and didn't like seeing it line up differently on both of my computers)

When I asked for reviews on here, several people commented on how it was important to use text rather than images and it had something to do with the search engines not being able to find the site because it looks for the text. (I think? *shrug*) I took that advice and my redesign (current) is all full of text replacing what used to be images before and, of course, websafe fonts.

But now I'm back to another redesign and wanting to use some strange fonts again. What if I wanted to use images with the text on it, but I also used the actual text, word for word, but "hid" it beneath the image, if not beneath the page (sent to back)?

This seems like it would be a neat trick for some people, like me, who really want to use the "special" fonts but also don't want to make it difficult for people to find my website in a search, IF that's what the text thing is all about.

I understand the text would not be selectable... but in my case, the text on the page I want to use it for isn't really something I'd imagine would need to be selected for anything.

Would this be an issue? Will the web be able to detect the text even if it is hidden behind an image??

Any insight on this would be very helpful and appreciated. :)

Thanks!

[Karen Mac]

Re: Hidden text under images

Yes.. the HIDDEN text can be detected by the SE just view source and you can SEE it yourself.. and when they find it .. will black ball you.

Karen

[Hester]

Re: Hidden text under images

Yes.. the HIDDEN text can be detected by the SE just view source and you can SEE it yourself.. and when they find it .. will black ball you.

Karen

black ball???

sorry, but I've never heard of that and have no idea what it means. Would you mind explaining?

Thanks.

[Vasili]

Re: Hidden text under images

George! Long time, no see!

You've been reading in the wrong book, my friend!
Hidden, "secret," camoflauged, or 'buried' text is considered Black Hat ... and used to be a method to unfairly influence values upon the Search Engines to be cached as contributing to SERP (positioning). Years ago, it was marginally allowed for 'descriptors' to be placed under a Header image to compensate for the lack of values associated with Header constructs (PNG images, Flash headers, etc.), but because this was so flagrantly misused, the practice became prohibited outright.

Learn more about Black Hat SEO HERE

[Hester]

Re: Hidden text under images

George! Long time, no see!

You've been reading in the wrong book, my friend!
Hidden, "secret," camoflouged, or 'buried' text is considered Black Hat ... and used to be a method to unfairly influence values upon the Search Engines to be cached as contributing to SERP (positioning).

Learn more about Black Hat SEO HERE

Hi Vasili -

yeah, it's been a while.

would you mind reposting that link. Takes me to an error/blank screen. :)

[Vasili]

Re: Hidden text under images

*misspelled the link*

GOOD NOW

Forgo the practice altogether, no matter how strong the temptation or how insignificant you think the err might be.
To give a peek on how your site complies with the most current Standards, you can use my tool HERE or get a relatively good overall report HERE

[Hester]

Re: Hidden text under images

"reading in the wrong book" ??

again - over my head. :)

I'm just a regular guy that plays with photoshop! I don't have any idea what any of this stuff means. (which is why I'm here).

I don't mind looking stuff up... but some of these terms are out there for me.

[Vasili]

Re: Hidden text under images

"Reading the wrong book" as in getting the wrong idea, coming to the wrong conclusion ... from somewhere...

[Hester]

Re: Hidden text under images

Okay... gotcha. I think. :)

I just read a site that was talking about Black Hat SEO. But I'm not sure I understand what would happen.

Simply put, if I DID hide the text, no matter what it says, could my site get banned?

I'm not saying I'm going to test this out, but I'm just curious if there's some system out there that reviews exactly WHAT is in the text vs what is on the page. (example: the text I have hidden says "welcome to my website" and it's under an image that says "welcome to my website"). o.O Even if it's not a bunch of "spam" like words and phrases. (maybe it seems obvious, but I'm just not sure I understand how this stuff works).

Reading this site, I see that it's something done by people to falsely advertise... however, and I assumed this, that is why I asked about writing out the exact same phrases, word for word.

I'm only asking because I couldn't find the answer on the site, but how would this be different than meta tags? Because... aren't meta tags technically "hidden" text? *shrug*

edit: I know I still have a lot to learn about this stuff. I hope I'm not coming across as being lazy. So many terms and acronyms I've never heard of before.

[Vasili]

Re: Hidden text under images

Simply put, if I DID hide the text, no matter what it says, could my site get banned?

I'm not saying I'm going to test this out, but I'm just curious if there's some system out there that reviews exactly WHAT is in the text vs what is on the page.

Reading this site, I see that it's something done by people to falsely advertise... however, and I assumed this, that is why I asked about writing out the exact same phrases, word for word.

I'm only asking because I couldn't find the answer on the site, but how would this be different than meta tags? Because... aren't meta tags technically "hidden" text? *shrug*

1.Yes, your site can be sanctioned, penalized severely, or potentially banned from the Global Search Engine permanently.
2. Yes, there are extremely sophisticated programs and coded methods that bots (spiders) are enabled with to discern what is and what is not properly formatted in web page constructs. I once figured there are at least 110 different ways to "hide" text, but Google has published that they regularly scan and detect more than 350 various methods, so they are undoubtedly ahead of any scheme out there.
3. KEEP IN MIND THAT IT ONLY TAKES 1 TIME TO GET CAUGHT, AND THAT ONE TIME CAN BE PERMANENT.
4. META and Formatting are two completely different things, and that is why you can easily spot the META entries in ANY website code -- be it Blue Voda, Dreamweaver (HTML), or even PHP/CMS platforms: META is an expanded set of descriptors, vital information that describes the website, its construct, and its content in order that it can not only be uniquely valued, but identified on the Net itself: how else can you differentiate between websites if all you had to go on is a numerical IP address?
THE CODE of a website, the real meat that reproduces everyting on it (shapes, colors, images/positioning, text, layout, functions, etc.) is the main format, and is much more than trying to hide 10 words in a pile of code ..... the very code - the construct - of a website is also evaluated for compliance and precision.... I have been preaching this forever, as you might recall, with my "Perfect Page Model" .... and text being found in the code where it does not belong is not only fairly easy to spot, it is a serious violation of protocol, and thus the penalties. The SE's can spot text not 'set' into a layout table or coded frame, as well as easily spot text under disassociated objects: text under an image (seen as .jpg for example), which then is flagged as violation of Rules. Same thing for non-contrasting colors, or object layers .... they all have established Rules for relational positioning and construct. In fact, code itself is so important, you can be dinged for sloppy or "leftover" code fragments exceeding a certain percentage of the whole! THAT is how closely the SE's are able to evaluate code!

I hope that helps to clarify things ... if not, well, I tried!

[Hester]

Re: Hidden text under images

ergo... concordantly... vis-a-vis... ;)

Vasili, thanks so much. Yeah, that clarified things a lot for me. I'm very ignorant when it comes to this stuff, which is why I ask questions before just doing it and learning the hard way.

I'm really not sure, then, how to approach this situation. If I can't use the text (font) I want, but also can't seem to get the text to appear the same on every computer, OS and resolution - how can I do that then? :)

I guess what I'm asking about is impossible, as everyone has a different setting for their browsers as far as default font size, maybe? I don't know.

This is a lot of info to take into account. I appreciate all the help. :)

[Hester]

Re: Hidden text under images

Also... for my job, I was printing out charts for my clients and it uses a certain font that won't be able to be seen by them unless I embed the font into the PDF. Then, when they open it on their computer, they see the symbols from the font I embedded, rather than the actual key symbols I pressed when creating them. (I don't know if that makes sense). :)

But what I'm getting at... the reason for this thread was to avoid using "websafe" fonts on my site for the menu and labels text. NOT the descriptions and the biography section. But just for things that are the "keywords" so to speak. I suppose, since they are "keywords", like drill, design, FAQ, marching band... those are all to go in the meta tags?

But if you know of how to embed a font into a PDF... is there a way to embed a font into BV or the website so that the viewer will see the text in the font I use?? Or is that another faux pas in web design??

eek... I'm really not very knowledgeable about this stuff, huh?

[Vasili]

Re: Hidden text under images

You should use the Logomaker now present in BV to create your textual representations for universal viewing, as it automatically converts it to a stable image (GIF).
Asking for universal display is an impossibility, as there is no way you can dictate the same monitor resolutions, the same settings, lighting levels, monitor color representations, etc.

And, quite frankly, this has nothing to do with the original issue at all.
"Hiding" text is not even close to "manipulating" text to create universiality.

Yes...yor Keywords are entered into your META > Page Properties, and are never "hidden" anywhere else.

Just like you linked to and can download to save or print out a copy of my Black Hat Primer, you too should create PDF's not only for "universiailty'" but also to preserve your creation (protect against changes or unauthorized use).

Get a PDF Converter FREE at www.pdf995.com .... you create your documents using whatever software you want, and then you "print" them using pdf995 (which is the process of converting them to PDF while saving). Pretty nifty.

[Hester]

Re: Hidden text under images

And, quite frankly, this has nothing to do with the original issue at all.
"Hiding" text is not even close to "manipulating" text to create universiality.

Maybe I clarified it in my last response. But I'll say it again here.

I wanted to use a special text on my page that is not "websafe". but because I wanted that "look" and not have it changed on other people's computers, I asked about hiding that same text in text form (not image) in the back. Since, to me, it wasn't as much about the content in the text as it was about me getting that specific look of the font I wanted to use.

Thus, universally it would show up the same size (since it would be an image) and not change from computer to computer.

I am truly sorry if I was confusing.